Alhamdulillah for Lloyds TSB Bank

This post was sent out through a different forum some time back but it makes sense to repeat it here.
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Bismillah

Yesterday one of the major British High Street banks announced that they are beginning to offer Islamic Banking to their Muslim customers, Allahu Akbar.

They quite rightly state that official figures of 2 million Muslims in Britain is too valuable a market to ignore. Far from denounce the banks I applaud them for their astuteness. Apparently Muslims will have a say in how the money from those accounts gets invested. Some will argue that this is more power and influence being accorded to the Muslims.

Some may wonder why this this announcement a good thing for the Muslims. Ten reasons are set out below:

1. It confirms that by sheer numbers alone the kuffar realise that Muslims are a force to be reckoned with.

2. UK Muslims will themselves realise that financially they represent a significant value to the UK economy

3. Islamic banks will probably not be able to compete with the high street banks and thus hopefully close down.

4. Seeing the kuffar in control of “Islamic banking” will force Muslims to wake up and realise that “something” is wrong with that.

5. Muslims will realise that Islamic banking is absolutely no different than having Islamic pork, Islamic adultery or of course “Islamic Riba” which is exactly what banking is.

6. Muslims and others will realise that the banks do not make their significant money from charging interest or other bank charges but that they make it from literally making money out of nothing, and that any single pound deposited in a UK bank permits them to lend out at least ten times that amount, at interest.

7. Muslims will realise that they must obey Allah in His command of paying the Zakat and in His prohibition of abandoning riba (see Umar Vadillo’s Fatwa on Banking).

8. Muslims will realise that in both establishing Zakat and abandoning riba we must return to using the Islamic Gold Dinar (IGD) and Silver Dirham (ISD)

9. The Open Trade Network (http://www.opentrade.org.uk) and other similar organisations striving to establish Islamic trade will gain increased support from UK and other Muslims.

10. UK based Muslims and others will join the growing movement of communities striving to establish Zakat (http://www.zakatpages.com) according to the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace.

Ma Salama
Technique of the Coup de Banque - A brilliant book by Shaykh Abdalqadir as Sufi


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28 Responses

  1. We can not blames kuffar who control the bank, because we as muslim sometime more worse than kuffar., sorry to say that.,eventhough Kuffar bank change to Islamic method, we still can not say this is halal because in the beginning of bank not from Halal method., dificult for us to clarified… now let we think more positive how to solve our muslim problem who involve with banking system. We must study the early fund using to set up a Halal or Islamic Bank….money from where…please visit http://www.gdinar.com this company is dealing with gold dinar…send a comments to them too.

  2. There are hundreds of Islamic banks around the world, and they base their operations on Islamic Financial rules as set out by the great Imams – Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi’i and Ahmed bin Hanbal.

    Mulsims have a duty to use these Islamic banks, as it’s the only way they can be sure their money will not be used for Haraam purposes or to support Haraam businesses.

    Lloyds TSB are not as Islamic bank. They are just jumping on the bandwagon because too many of their customers are going to a truly Islamic company, which is Islamic Bank of Britain (IBB) http://www.islamic-bank.com.

    If you live in the UK then you MUST support IBB, because the last thing we need is for this company to fail. If it does, then you can say “bye bye” to true Islamic banking in Britain, because nobody else will bother setting up a 100% Halaal bank. Why would they if the Muslims are too busy using Kuffar banks???

  3. I think Mohammed Abbas does not realise that the IBB is really no different from Lloyds TSB. From it’s tied into the UK/world banking system it’s just as haram. To say we MUST support IBB is probably going a bit too far. I really don’t think he understood the original article.

  4. Im afriad there is no such thing as an Islamic Bank. Just like there is no such thing as Islamic Prostituion or Islamic Whisky.

    Banks foundation stone. Their granite. Their base. Their strength. Their whole being of existance is paper money, which is based on Riba (in Shariah the value of that 10cm by 5cm square peice of paper is exactly that, a small peice of paper). However the value of the paper money in kaffir banking system its value is based more than the shariah equivalent of “a peice of paper” as it is inflated by Riba. Inflation etc… So the point is this.

    If a new person comes along and ties his mast into this support foundation (banking capitalism) and sticks the label “Islamic” before the bank, how does that make it Halal?

    I pray Allah reforms us Muslims to Gold, Silver, Material commerce and services and the like and do away with the kaffir system.

  5. Islamic Pork? Well, under some circumstances pork is permissible… e.g. Desert without any food. And under some circumstances Banks can be utilised for the muslims. And this is what most of the muslim scholars say today. And the scholars have the most islamic knowledge from all people. So if anyone is to say using banks is like eating pork… it would be the scholars first. But they realise under certain conditions certain things become permissible out of necessity.

  6. to all those who have issues using paper money and banks in kuffars states. As a Muslim, I suggest you take all your money out of the HARAAM banks and give all that you receive away seeing as it is oh so UNISLAMIC. and then possibly create your own nation where you can propser using gold and silver.
    Please!
    …I understand that we cannot change the sunnah of the Prophet SAW but your ideals and notions really leave a lot to be desired and a lot of realism. I’d like to see how you’d make such a community work.

  7. For a name like “Hikmah” your comments are surprisingly naive. Rumi said that “the hyprocrite is the one that says what Allah has ordered is not possible”. How can it be that Allah has given us the command to avoid riba and at the same time made it undesirable and unrealistic? “I’d like to see how you’d make it work?” really means “i know your right in establsihing the halal but i’m not going to help you, instead i’ll sit on the sidelines and be smug”.

  8. Further to this, I must point out that there is action that we can take. The most simple act is simply paying your zakat in the shariah currency, gold and silver. This very simple act has been implemented by communities right here in the UK, proving it is possible. The full effect of this simple act will be devastating to the bankers, if we take it on. We should take it on.

  9. I am an employee of IBB, i have these sorts of conversations everyday with customers who are like majority of the people on this board very skeptical of islamic banking, and believe it to be a twist of words to make “islamic pork” halal. I would like point out to my brothers and sisters here that pork and fornication have been explicitely forbidden is Islam where does it say that banks in all shapes and forms are forbidden? if a bank chooses to run with islamic principals then whats wrong with that? musharakah, mudarabah, tawwaruq, qard, murabaha are just a few modes of transactions that are adopted by IBB and other islamic banks around the world, these modes have not been designed today or yesterday, there references can be found 1400 hundred years ago.

  10. Abdullah Seymour : you say pay your zakat in gold and silver, to be honest this is the first i have heard of this (can you point to a reference where to possibly read up more on this) secondly if i pay zakat in gold which will ultimately end up with someone who is poor and who needs to buy food, will they not need to exchange that gold against currency which will be accepted by a shop keeper?

  11. Is it possible for a bank to run on Islamic principles? No. Because their foundation- paper money- is haram. They have attempted to redefine the meaning of interest, so that they can charge us Muslims interest for mortgages and loans. They do it by tampering with fiqh and paying scholars tens of thousands of pounds to make fatwas to support their claims.

    Zakat in gold and silver…. there’s much information on this subject on this website. The shariah currency is Dinar and Dirham, gold and silver. Paying zakat should be in the shariah currency.
    On the second point.. yes your absolutely right, it most probably will end up with someone wanting to change it into paper. Three points to this: 1. The neccesity of wakala’s is essential, as they should be present in each community to change the gold into paper, and vice versa. 2. The very fact that every Muslim paid their zakat in shariah currency would make the whole thing grow by itself, as suddenly the shariah currency would be in circulation once again. 3. Its our obligation to try as best we can to make the shop keepers accept the currency. If i was a shop keeper i’d rather have gold and silver then paper, especially as the current financial mystical bubble is on the verge of popping.

  12. “Because their foundation- paper money- is haram.”

    Where does it say that paper money is haram?

    A shopkeeper buys bread for 50p and sells it to you for £1.00, the 50p profit that he made is that interest or is that permissible? On the same note if a bank buys a house for £100,000 and sells it to you for £125,000, is that not permissible?

    A islamic bank is a business and not islamic releif. It has costs and it is there to make a profit, in islam thre is no restriction on trade or making a profit, as long as it is done within the principals of shariah.

    “They do it by tampering with fiqh and paying scholars tens of thousands of pounds to make fatwas to support their claims.”

    I am assuming that you have solid proof to back this claim, if not then with all due respect, how can you say stuff like that about ulema based on just hear say? These sorts of claims first of all make you sinful and secondly causes unnecessary confusion amongst the masses.

  13. Assalamu Alaikum

    First of all Amir ismail and Abdullah Seymour I must commend you both for keeping the discussion civil. There is absolutely no reason why we should not have differences of opinion. However what we must be aiming to do is reach agreement on what is most pleasing to Allah and His beloved Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace.

    i would first recommend that you download and go through the “fatwa on banking” which is available through the links on this site. i would also suggest looking at some of the other posts on this site which do cover some of the issues you have both brought up.

    At the heart of the matter I think are two things: The first is a very clear and deep understanding of exactly what is riba in all its guises. This will leave us in no doubt about the banks and paper money, but we also have to understand the true nature of halal trade to avoid confusion in this matter also.

    Secondly, given what Allah says about he and His messenger declaring riba, and what is said about the least of riba (comparable to commiting incest with one’s own mother in the Kaba) then we have to be clear on what our priorities, as Muslims, must be.

    I would suggest that we must obey Allah in both command and prohibition, and the biggest commands seem to be the five pillars and it would seem that riba is one of the biggest prohibitions, so our Islamic and political priorities would seem to be quite clear

  14. I use to work for the IBB myself and they are anything but Islamic, the principles that they have been based apon is Islamic but the way that they treat people certainly is not Islamic.

    They are now only interested in people who wish to invest in high amounts of money ie over £100,000+, below £1000 that they don’t really care if they loose customers as they don’t generate as much money for them. They are even thinking about charging them to use their branches every month.

    If you wish to take this so called Islamic high road and get exploited then IBB is the bank that will do just that. They couldn’t really care less about normal people now and are concentrating on things called Personal Finance, Commercial Finance, Business Finance … Astagfirullah a so called “Islamic bank” incouraging others to enter debt for reasons to get better in this dunya (world). ie to buy a car, getting married, going on holiday or even home improvements – if thats Islamic – then my Local Imaam has a six pack.

    Commercial finance … exploiting Muslims by charging 2 – 3% above the base rate … and what is the base rate … the rate of Riba.

    Islamic banks and espcially IBB … I wouldn’t trust them until they sort their act out. They aint got a clue what they are doing and are being dragged along simply by the word “Islamic” in their title.

    There are a very few people out there that are happy with the IBB for me they will really need to change the way they treat their customers, improve their services dramatically, improve there products and start acting like a bank that is regulated by the FSA rather than thinking that they are brilliant when they clearly a million miles away from the truth – then I may consider having an account with the IBB.

    Working for a considerable amount of time and seeing how shambollically it is run stick to a normal high street bank such as Lloyds TSB / HSBC Islamic current accounts. Realistically the tiny bit of profit that you make on your money aint worth the hassle, this way with a current account has no Riba that is taken or given and at least the scholars of these high street banks will be held accountable but you will be getting a brilliant service which Islamic banks should be able to give – well we can only hope. (aint going to hold my breath).

    The rate that IBB is going it may just be in approximately 35 years before they realise it is the customers requirements that needs to be looked after rather than praising themselves for being the first FSA regulated bank that can legally expoit Muslims and still have the title Islamic in their name.

    At the end of the day we are living the laws of the land and it states we need to make transactions in sterling so we have to follow their rules.

    Peace and love to all

    M’salaama

  15. If a house is worth £150k and if you were to pay “cash” you would get it for £150k, But if you can’t pay cash, you get an “Islamic mortgage” and you pay, for example, £200k, 50k more than its worth. True or false? If this is true, then how is this halal?

  16. is it ok for a muslim living in the us to pay zakat with us eagles

  17. YES
    I can’t remember the correlation off-hand but for example a kruggerand works perfectly as an eight (8) dinar coin. The important thing is that we know exactly what a dinar is in order to work out the nisab etc.
    The problem is that Eagles, Maple leafs, Pandas, Krugerrands and the like are all around the one ounce size which makes it hard to use them for smaller transactions and they are marketed more for investment purposes. The Gold Dinar, however, was always meant to be a practical coin that would be used in everyday transactions as well as savings.

  18. Thank you James khan, of all the comments, your comment was the one that made sense. Iam a novice at Islamic banking, but as you said their staff do not have enough knowledge on the products was quite right. Thank you again for your article

  19. salaamu alaikum,
    Please how can I found zakat assistance. kindly help me for the sake of Allah. I need it for my studies.
    jazakum llahu hairun.
    Thank you.

  20. Asalam Alaykum,

    I speak with experience. I am currently stuck in a HSBC Amanah finance Islamic mortgage. I have had it for over 4 years and was one of the first people on the scheme. ironicaly in this age of credit crunch i would have been paying less money on my house through a conventional “non Islamic” mortgage. These Islamic Banks knew all they needed were genuine gullible Muslims and they have cleaned us up.

    The base interest rate of Amanah (ignoring the “fiqh rhetoric” of their papers trying to sound all islamic on you), is around 6.3%. It is linked to the LABOR rate. That is the London InterBank Lending Rate. which is currently always around 3%. Normal banks offer you 4 or 5 % interest but the Islamic one stays at 6% or over.

    The only difference is i get a slip of paper that says “Rent” instead of “Interest” charged. In fact i would compare it to putting a veil/hijaab on a prostitute and saying she is halal just because she looks Islamic.

    These Islamic banks are worse. At least with a conventional mortgage you KNOW its 100% Haram, instead of the disguised Shaytan that is the “Islamic Mortgage”.

    Finally, the service of the bank is abysmal, they would not move my direct debit by a few days earlier, knowing full well that every month i may go over due to my wage (and so they make extra interest on me by charging me). Despite asking them to change my Amanah finance payments to the date my payslips come in, i asked them twice and they didnt want anything of it and ignored me. Riba upon riba upon riba upon riba.

    Still you live and learn, so take one at our own peril…

    Masalaam

  21. Alhamdulillah, there’s not really much you can add to that comment, I think it’s self-explanatory

  22. [...] It might be quite timely to read our previous post “Alhamdulillah for Lloyds TSB“ [...]

  23. ZAKAT collected in dinar and dirham on 25th Ramadan 1432AH in Catalonia football stadium is the climax peak performance inshAllah,to come,our icing on the cake with the cherry on top,thank you Eric Cantana,Umar Vadillo and Shaykh Abdul Qadir.Zakat collected in dinar and dirham is indeed the battle won,asalamalaykum.

  24. I am going to start doing something which uncovers this facade of Islamic Banking among the people I know in my life. Any suggestions like where and how to start would be more than welcome. Does anyone have any suggestions as how to avoid BANK and still be a part of society ? I am an architect and build small projects with my own capital along with my services offered to clients. My personally owned projects complete in about 18 months, giving about 15% return.
    I would really be very grateful if anyone can tell me a mechanism by which I could offer people to be a part of these projects and earn Halal. They have to be secured and I need to make sure their inflows are on time.
    Basically the trust between us has gone and that’s why we turn to banks so it can safeguard us and our capital. Like the pirates who established insurance companies and the ship owner paid money to avoid being looted!
    If we can bring back honesty and trust, we will have Islam and Islamic economy.
    You guys are from banking and related fields, I need us to work together to give alternatives to common people like ourselves to avoid banking.
    I have lost trust in scholars, its time people with sense put their Hearts and Minds together and bring out solutions for the communities.
    Jazakallah

    • Assalamu Alikum Kashif

      One of the first things you can do is simply let it be known that you will accept at least some of the payment for your services in Gold and Silver and preferably in Islamic Gold Dinars and Islamic Silver Dirhams, and also to actively encourage people to pay you with them.

      Secondly is to pay Zakat (in Gold Dinars & Silver Dirhams). This will in the first place be on your savings and also perhaps on your investments. So they are two big things.

      Thirdly is explore the possibility of being a Qirad agent. By this I mean someone who people invest money with and they come to some arrange as to how profits (and losses) will be shared, any payment for work to be taken out of the money and how the capital is repaid.

      There is also (fourthly) the partnership contract in Islam called Shirkat. However, in this instance partners/co-investors also have to share the workload, so no concept of a sleeping partner.

      In this way people can keep their capital; working and keep it away from the banks and create wealth and employment. So please feel free to get back to me if I can help facilitate this in any way or perhaps advertise it when you have worked out an offer or proposal.

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